E-collar dog training: Would your dog choose it if you gave him the option?
Have you ever wondered if your dog would choose e-collar dog training? I spend a fair amount of time sleuthing the internet for information and opinions regarding e-collars or “shock collars” as some continue to call them.
One of the sentiments I’ve noticed lately being touted by those who wish to have the tool banned from existence is the idea that the dogs (our dogs) didn’t get to “choose” this form of training or this training tool. This statement is usually uttered in reference or testimonial that demonstrates a human subjecting themselves to e-collar stimulation for either comedic purposes or for the sake of visually elaborating on a concept. The typical commentary is: “well, the human had a choice about feeling that tool, those poor dogs don’t.”
That line of thinking got me pondering on the idea of choices for our dogs. I am curious how you feel about e-collar dog training and hope you chime into the conversation.
I’m all for giving my dogs some options, as in: do you want this toy or this one? Do you want to sniff out this trail or the one over there? But my personal outlook is that my dogs are my responsibility and as such I do make a lot of decisions for them. Here is a brief list of some of the decisions I don’t give my dogs a choice about.
I decide:
What they eat.
What vaccinations they get and how often.
What dogs I trust and allow them to interact with.
If they are allowed to swim or not.
When they need to get a bath, nails trimmed or ears cleaned.
If they get to remain intact or if they will be surgically altered (spay & neuter).
Why do I decide these things for my beloved companions and not give them “their choice”? Well, I feel fairly confident I will make better decisions for them than they would make for themselves. Case in point, my dogs would probably never chose to get vaccinated or take a bath or file their nails, they would likely make some bad choices and trust dogs that they shouldn’t. They would absolutely choose to eat trash and clean up every human left over they could. And for certain, Diva, would jump in the water and swim ANYWHERE despite a dangerous current.
So does the fact that I don’t allow my dogs too many choices make me some sort of evil dictator? If it does, I guess I am guilty of raising my kids that way also. I believe in applying structure, limitations and rules that I determine to be in the best interest of all.
When my charges (dogs or kids) clearly understand the rules I’ve created they actually get more freedom as a result. And they grow to a level of independence that I feel is our responsibility to teach them to have. One of my children is out of the house, putting himself through higher education and making his own way in the world. The second child will soon be following suit. And meanwhile my dogs no longer need to be kenneled or baby gated when I am away from the house and they are calm and well mannered if they are left in anothers care for a period of time. Through the choices I’ve made for them in e-collar “training” they have learned self control and the liberties that go along with that.
I honestly believe that if my dogs could speak for themselves they would choose the e-collar dog training and the subsequent freedom it brings with it.
They get to run off leash in unfenced areas, they get to be part of the party when there is company, they get to go along on most trips and they can be in public venues without being a nuisance.
Yes, I am the one responsible for making the e-collar dog training choice for my dogs. And as a result of it I do not have to make choices to withhold their freedom because “there are too many distractions around” nor do I have to limit their exploration to the end of a leash or clipped to a front pressure harness or head halter.
So what are your thoughts? Is it appropriate that we make the choices for our dogs training tools or exactly how does this argument stack up in your opinion?
The biggest issue I see with e-collars is re-directed aggression. I have seen dogs turn and bite the nearest thing to them when shocked. It happens frequently, and it is frightening. However, when I first got my pointer five years ago – BEFORE I became a trainer – I didn’t know better and used an e-collar to make sure I didn’t lose him chasing birds on the barrier island that we take him to. My mentor, seeing this one day while out with us, asked me why I used this piece of equipment IN A CONVERSATIONAL AND NON-JUDGMENTAL WAY. We got talking about alternatives. And I trained using the positive methods she guided me in.
It worked, and now I cringe to think of what I did to my dog. He was smart, and I only ever had to use the “beep” or “vibrate” after the initial shock. But that initial shock even at the lowest level was traumatic, and it was clear that he was seeking to avoid it whenever the collar beeped or vibrated. That’s the definition of an aversive, and I don’t use them any more in training. I don’t need to! My pointer and cattle dog respond beautifully to hand signals at more than 100 yards.
So I really believe that most people using e-collars (note that I don’t call them “shock collars,” as it puts people using them on the defensive) either A) don’t have the set of tools/knowledge how to train the same result without using aversives, or B) are too interested in quick results to bother. I like to think A is the majority of the folks currently using them, and it should be the mission of trainers who have a full tool kit to teach them.
My dogs choose to return for a throw of their frisbee, not be shocked into returning. It works wonderfully for all of us.
HAPPY TRAINING.
Hi Catherine, Thank you for your comments. I hear a lot about re-directed aggression, but I don’t personally see it. But then again, that is probably because I am so immersed in teaching people how to collar condition their dogs in such a way that they are not using a high level aversive or using stim in a trigger situation as a punishment for “bad” behavior. By conditioning the dogs to e-stim properly (or my judgement of “proper”) the dogs do not equate the sensation with pain and the other dog/person/object being the cause of it. But I can absolutely see how it happens. That is one of the main reasons I’ve stepped onto this platform to educate…to try and get people to understand they should not slap an e-collar on the dog and use it as a punishment for doing “bad”. Unfortunately I suspect I still have a good way to go in that message as it is the idea that not only comes to mind first with most of the average dog owners but it is the idea promoted by many dog trainers who would rather see the tool banned than allow anyone to talk of other ways to use it…
As for why most people that use e-collars do so…I can tell you my reason is because of the finesse it creates in my training and the speed I can allow more freedom for my dogs. For the record I started out “all positive” in my early days of training, I’ve seen the polar opposite, strong compulsion as well..I’ve studied many techniques and tools and worked with a variety of trainers so although many label me a “shock collar” trainer I label myself as balanced. I see tremendous value in what many of the “all positive” teach and I utilize much of it…but I find there is such division and name calling among many (and from my perspective it is primarily from those standing in the all positive camp) that we’ve lost much of the ability to learn from one another…that is sad.
..but I digress…as for why I think many average folks choose e-collars…I believe it is the way of our modern life; speed & efficiency. Most people do need results quickly. I don’t think that makes them bad people. Just busy people. They want a dog to enjoy it, to truly have it part of their lifestyle but dog’s do dog things that drive the average person to frustration (which is when we don’t want them to buy an e-collar and try to “do it themselves”) The e-collar, used as a communication device to deliver very clear communication between yes/no (please let’s not go down the path that no must = pain) is fast, fast = human being reinforced and therefore not give up = frustration going away and more patience developing, that = more opportunity to educate and teach even more…that leads to more people doing more with their dogs. I can only speak from my experience but since embarking on this “e-collar is part of my training program” path I can say that the number of people I have doing more and more with their dogs is astounding. I’ve personally overseen more than 3000 dogs trained this way and am at the point nearly 15 years later that I have clients returning with their 2 and 3rd dogs telling me “there is no other way I’d do it now Robin”. I am not suggesting it can’t be done other ways…I will argue though it can’t be done as quickly or with the same ease. If it happened because I was causing pain/fear & intimidation, re-directed aggression, learned helplessness or tremendous fall out down the road (words according to the anti collar crowd)….well people aren’t stupid, they would not keep coming back with their brand new puppies asking when can we get started.
all that said….I don’t think the e-collar is the cure all, magic fix. I think it is a tool, a tool that can be a very valuable asset to a balanced approach to training. It all depends on the level of knowledge of the person holding the remote. Again, thank you for your comment and polite conversation. It is appreciated. Happy Training to you as well. Robin
I just wanted to share that all three of my dogs are fully off leash trained for high distractions fully with rewards based training. Two of them are siberian huskies, which are notorious for not being able to be off leash trained. They are excellent. I can call them from people, other dogs, and distractions like ducks and deer. All without using an e-collar, this freedom was obtained and it wasn’t even really difficult. So just so you know, you don’t need an e-collar in order to let your dogs have freedom. I’m not saying you are a bad person or evil or anything, it is my choice to train without one and I think it’s important for people to understand that it IS possible to train high off leash reliability without the use of aversive methods or electronic collars.
Sarah, Thank you for your post and congratulations on the level of training you have achieved with your dogs. For the record I don’t think anyone has to use an e-collar either. I think it is an option and if people choose it my goal is they learn to use it correctly and without undue stress on the dog. I particularly appreciate your words: I’m not saying you are a bad person or evil or anything, it is my choice The attitude of acceptance amongst dog enthusiasts and professionals would do the dog world a whole lot more good than the name calling and drawing lines in the sand that is so prevalent. Have a lovely day. Robin
I would appreciate it if you could explain to my why you choose to use it and how you use it.
If you are using them on a low level as a conditioned marker, why spend the money on a high end e-collar? Why not use a cheap neutral stimulus. This is what confuses me. If they’re just being used as a marker, what makes them so special to warrant the large price tag? That seems like a very expensive marker signal to me.
I think in response to your blog, my dogs love their freedom, but given the choice they would rather be trained with reward and reinforcement based methods than an e-collar.
i adopted a dog that was extremely dog aggressive. I tried virtually every form of training over 4 years with no results to the point of not only spending thousands, stressing out everyday, and subjecting my dog to situations that didn’t help. In my case the e-collar is a godsend. It’s easy to say you have your dogs since they are puppies or adopted a dog that isn’t aggressive and to project that on to everyone elses case. It isn’t the case for all of us. An e-collar is a specific tool for a specific scenerario. For me it saved my dogs life.
Sarah, you can find many examples of my work and others like me YouTube and in our blogs. However if you truly want to learn I suggest you come here and study it for a while or I can refer you to an expert in your area. I personal do not believe one can truly comprehend the art of training by reading it in written format…but perhaps that is just me.
Hi Robin, I’m willing to learn thats why I am asking questions. You want to educate, I’m ready to be educated. I would be willing to attend a seminar or something if there was one close enough. I live in a pretty remote area in Canada though so talking online is about the best I can do right now. I’m open minded, and would love it if you could give me an answer. I can explain simply to you why I choose to train the way I do. If you cannot explain simply to me why you choose to use the tools you do and how you use them, I will assume you don’t understand well enough to educate me. So please try, I would appreciate it.
Hi Sarah,…Why I chose to use the tools I do. because they are the easiest tools to teach people to use that gain fairly rapid results with minimal stress. If people see real results quickly, they keep going rather than give up. For the dogs I chose the tool because of the clarity. I believe the learning is so black and white that the level of stress is actually less than other methods. I also believe one of the most gratifying things we can do for a dog is to routinely un-clip the leash and let them “be dogs”. For the average pet owner to do that safely, in a fairly quick time frame, we need an insurance policy that we can get the dogs attention back to us if they become diverted to something else. As far as how I do it, I’m not willing to attempt to write it all down, there are many variables… However, I will send you copies of my dvds which goes over the bare bone mechanics of the process. If you are willing to pay for the shipping to Canada and send your address, I will get them on the way.
Considering that many times the ecollar is the difference between life or certain death for a lot of dogs, I think a better question would be to ask them if they prefer life.
I can think of more than a few dogs whose owners had given up on them and were on the verge of euthanizing their pet before deciding to try the collar. I have yet to meet a person who regretted it, nor a dog who resented it.
My dogs are very eager when they see the collars come out. It means they are going somewhere and doing things that they enjoy. I have had dogs grab “their” collar off the counter and bring it to me to put on them so we could go for a trek.
The annoying whinging about the cruelty of collar use and how inhumame they are is from a group of people who have either never witnessed their use in capable hands or are going on the speculation of third-party accounts.
Like I said, I think if a dog was given a choice between euthanasia and ecollars, I’m pretty convinced they would choose to live.
The choice is NEVER between euthanasia and shock collars. The choice is between proper application of the science of behavior modification, owner or trainer skill and commitment, or lack thereof. I find the incessant whining about positive principles not being successful at behavior modification a bit annoying.
Positive principles are not unsuccessful. The idea of all positive training without ANY form of aversive is a myth. Much of simple management protocols are aversive. I don’t believe it should be a choice between euthanasia and “shock collar training” either. However, case in point…the current dog I have in board and train spoke to a “behaviorist” in Madison, WI who told the dog’s owner “If you take the dog to Robin you might as well kill her now”. Nice. Me thinks if I get verifiable data of that quote there will be a bit of public humiliation I will be proud to point out to the folks who say such nonsense and have NO personal or first hand experience of what I do or don’t do. All based on a tool that I am outspoken about…
Maybe not for your client(s) Ann, but I get a fair bit of them here. As a matter of fact, one or two from “trainers” of your acquaintance right here, in good Ole’ Maryland.
I get calls DAILY from people who are at their wits end, who have been told by the resident gurus, vets and other trainers that their dogs are hazards and are better off dead.
For me it is about more than that though. I see a fair bit of dogs who were poorly served by the training they encountered and their owners never gave up. Which is why I get these dogs, because no-one else would work with them, or sucked their owners dry only to cut them loose with no resolution to their problems.
So, about the science. How could you possibly know? You only apply one or at the outset two quadrants. *I* find the incessant whining about the abridged understanding of (the science of) behavior modification a bit annoying.
i spent thousands on “positive behavior modification” from top trainers to correct my dog and none of them could correct his behavior. With less than one month on the collar hes completely different. He’s happier, more calm, more trusting, and most of all more confident. It’s very easy to claim any dog can be rehabbed without a collar but i know from my case that wasn’t reality. So let’s stay within the boundaries of the real world and get off our high horse k
I’d just like to point out that I personally know at least a few people who have responded here (myself included) and our comments have clearly not shown up. Please don’t ask questions of your readers if you only want to hear one answer. You asked “Would your dog choose…” The answer could be yes. Or no. But clearly you don’t want to hear “no” because that doesn’t play into your cause. If you’re not going to allow dissenting views, then perhaps you should let folks know everything is moderated because it’s rude to let people take the time to make their case and then you never let it see the light of day.
I’m going to call it as I see it: You’re cowards. I know this won’t make it out of moderated status, but you’ll read it anyway. If you can’t handle dissent, you are cowards, plain and simple. And it seems that most shock collar trainers are complete cowards. I’m not surprised. Most bullies are.
I will reply to this one first Michelle. This blog is moderated. It is stated in the About section as are the rules of what is allowed. Dissenting opinions are allowed, debate is encouraged. Name calling and threats are not. I’ve gotten more than my share of that since “coming out of the closet” regarding e-collar use. Moderating means the comments by new users wait in the cue until I get to them. I didn’t get to them last night because I actually go to bed and sleep. Then I get up, I take care of my dogs, I eat breakfast, talk to my family, get cleaned up and then come to work. THEN I check my e-mail and blog. Oh, and I take weekends off for the most part too. I believe in balance in all aspects of my life so if comments come in late Sat or Sun they usually don’t show till Monday.
Thanks for calling me a coward and bully though. Name calling is so “positive”. Have a lovely day.
Robin
But it prompted you to reveal all the posts, didn’t it? Good job.
And on a side note, I bet you’re as happy with my “punishment” as most dogs are when punishment is inflicted on them. Just something to think about. I know I won’t get you to change your mind, but it’s just something to ruminate on.
you honestly are making yourself and your “cause” seem pathetic. You can sit on a high horse and trash talk all you like. Instead i suggest you go adopt an aggressive dog that is going to be euthanized and rehabilitate him using your methods. Do some good in the world instead of coming on forums and name calling.
I apologize for this. I know you and the rest are pissed at me about this one post and due to it you all think I’m some idiot. I was tired and stupidly listened to someone who told me you were someone else, someone who tends to delete anything that disagrees with her and then blocks those people from posting at all. I should have done my research first instead of just taking what someone said at face value, which was my first mistake. Letting my irritation get the better of me was my second mistake. It was only later when I went to look at this person’s videos on youtube that I thought “gee that doesn’t look like the same person” and realized it wasn’t. I felt bad and I admit I was totally embarrassed by my unwarranted attack on someone who didn’t deserve the ire that was directed toward someone else.
So I apologize for attacking you. It was done without thinking and it was a stupid thing to do.
I’m really not a bad person. But sometimes we all do stupid things, especially on the internet.
Thank you Michelle. I don’t think you are a bad person, how could I, I don’t know you. Despite the words that may be exchanged between myself and those who disagree with my perspective I do my best to reserve judgement about the personal value of individuals. We live in an age when the internet allows people a boldness they would not have in person. I also think that anyone can say anything here in cyberspace and it makes it quite difficult to determine what is factual and what is not. And most of us can be easily drawn into drama never bothering to question but rather just swallow; hook, line and sinker and then play the telephone game repeating what is rumor. I do often write in a way that encourages speculation, often asking provocative questions…my goal is not to convert, but to get people to question. Question their oft first assumption that remote collars are tools of torture only used by those who have no compassion, are lazy etc. It is simply not the case. It is a tool and as with ANY tool, it’s humaneness and effectiveness depends entirely on the user. I have no problem what so ever with anyone choosing not to use one. What I have a problem with is someone judging and condemning others for their choices. And I have a serious problem with the line drawing between groups in the dog training profession. Personally I’d like to see someone hold a “peace summit” for dog trainers. We get together, eat, drink and play with our dogs. No debates, just social time. We might discover we have way more in common than we thought and perhaps some would begin to sheath their swords and learning from one another could resume.
I’d actually LOVE to see a peace summit because you’re right. People make a lot of assumptions on both sides. For the record, I don’t think people who train with e-collars are monsters or dog torturers or people who have no compassion. I’ve seen those sorts and it’s not a pretty picture. I actually think e-collars are kinder than choke chains and prong collars because they don’t have the possibility of throat damage that the others carry.
But I won’t personally use them. It’s my choice and it’s one I’ll stand by.
And you’re right…people can be really something else on the internet. The sort of faceless aspect of it makes it far easier to say things you wouldn’t normally say. And I feel exceptionally bad for taking someone’s word for something when I should not have. I’m usually one who does her research!
Thank you for your kind response.
Thanks Michelle for your candid admittance with Robin and subsequent dialogue. I respect that. I wish others would be willing to do the same as well so that even if we disagree we could all still get along, respect each other and learn from each other.
Although I did not have so many comments in this, I just want to echo Robin and Michael, Michelle.
Yesterday at work, we had a dog come in with horrible pressure necrosis sores from an invisible-fence-type system. Not only that, but the owner apparently used ANOTHER e-collar on the dog–there were at least 4 open wounds, as described in the chart (this all went down before I came in, as I was on a later shift). I was able to have a glance at the dog before he went home–I did not see the “burn mark” that connected the two sets of sores, so can’t verify that’s what it was.
Of course, what was actually written in the chart was “Burns from shock collar” rather than the fact that the owner admitted (per several techs with whom I spoke) that he had to PULL the probes of the collar out of the neck–he had undid the clasps and the collar part fell off, but the boxes remained “stuck” to the dog’s neck.
Burns? I don’t think so.
And this was the day when I’d brought in my dog on her e-collar.
Talk about feeling helpless to do anything because of the misuse of a tool, the evidence right before your eyes. Then again, one might feel same when hearing about a drunken driver inadvertently using a car as a weapon to potentially harm someone else, or a nut with a gun who shoots up another person for any inane reason, or even something like what happened recently in Urbana OH, a woman stabbed and dismembered. We all know deep down that it is people who cause these issues. It is not the car, the gun, the knife. They are tools, and people use those every day in a neutral setting with no issues whatsoever.
Getting back to training, the main idea is that we are all helping dogs. Although an issue at hand that splits the profession is the tools at hand, I do wonder if it is a red herring: it is results and standards that are the bottom line.
Who cares how a dog is trained (barring actual abuse) so long as it has a reliable, one-command performance around varying distractions, and off-leash? Read what the dog is saying: is it happy, confident, and willing to work?
If everything falls into place, what’s the issue?
I would much rather dogs get trained on an e-collar than euthanized in pound, which is what happens to far too many dogs and cats.
Michelle, you clearly have little or no experience with how a remote collar is used. In your blog response to this blog post you state “But does that mean they would choose to be trained using something that causes a pain in their neck every time they do something wrong? Would they choose an uncomfortable sensation when they do something wrong over a reward when they do something right? ”
First my questions to you would be 1) Have you ever felt a collar yourself or are you writing based on what other people have told you? 2) Who ever said we dont reward dogs?
It seems to me that there are several people who have strong opinions about how a remote collar causes “pain, fear & intimidation”, “learned helplessness”, etc but then these people have very little if any experience with them. If they have had experience with a collar themselves it was 20+ years ago. Things have come along way!
I am not disputing the fact that ANY training tool can be misused but if you are going to post things like “They’re not really giving you the truth about shock collars, but rather their twisted version of the truth (it doesn’t hurt, there’s no pain, it’s just a stim).” You probably want to have a clue as to what you are talking about first.
I came across this the other day- “clicker training is pretty easy to use and pretty resistant to user error under the guidance of a qualified instructor.” So let’s see, does this mean that clicker training CAN have user error if not “under the guidance of a qualified instructor”? Seems to me ANY tool can have user error if not under the guidance of a qualified instructor be it clicker, remote collar, pinch collar, leash & collar, whatever….. SO why don’t the people who use +R training just educate others on how to use it properly and we will continue to educate people on the proper use of the remote collar?
Off to train some dogs. Have a great day!
I’ve spoken with and met a handful of people who train with shock collars. I’ve seen them demonstrate them on their dogs. And I’ve felt the collar on myself (including on my neck). I found it ranged from uncomfortable to painful, depending on the level used. I chose not to use something like that on my dog. I don’t know how anyone can honestly claim that they’re not painful or uncomfortable, that they’re not aversive.
I’m not coming to this from a lack of knowledge. I sought the knowledge; I checked out the collars; I refused to use them. So yes, I have a “clue.” A lot of clues. I’ve seen trainers and people who claim to be trainers (the “Sit Means Sit” crew who left me utterly horrified at what they did) use them. I’ve met their dogs. And I still came to the conclusion that I would never use something like that on my dog.
I know it’s easier to assume that someone knows nothing when they disagree with you, but it’s not always the case.
I do know some shock collar trainers use rewards as well, but considering how a properly placed reward can get the behavior all on its own, I see no reason to incorporate something adverse into the relationship I have with my dog.
they are not aversive because they are not used to punish. Proper collar training is never used as a punishment or correction tool but as an attention tool. At a low stim level it is meant to simply draw the attention to you on any command. The fact that you say it is used when they do something wrong shows you don’t know how to use them properly. You repeated that multiple times. I never correct my dog with the collar.
I think it’s different to say “I choose things to keep my dog safe” than “I choose something to train my dog with that may cause pain and/or uncomfortable sensations.” I’m pretty sure my dog would not jump into a fire, for instance. I trust that she would make the right choice there. I’m also fairly certain that my dog would not choose to be trained using anything that is painful and/or uncomfortable. She is a soft dog who shows stress signals at harsh words (that aren’t even directed at her), who flinches and avoids you if you accidentally shock her with static shock. When I first got her and did some collar pops (on a flat collar, not a choke), she simply shut down and rolled over. It was pretty obvious that she didn’t like those methods and would not have chosen them. On the flip side, from her increased toy and tug drive, from the way she works for the possibility of reward, the way her eyes light up when I get out the agility equipment, I’m pretty sure she’d choose those methods of training.
So would she choose the e-collar? No. Would I? Absolutely not. There are far better ways to train that don’t involve pain, uncomfortable sensations, fear and/or intimidation.
The beautiful thing about the way I train is that she gets time off leash, clear communication, and all that without the addition of a “stim” or “sensation” or whatever euphemism for “shock” you’re calling them these days.
aren’t you noble. Unfortunately not every dog responds to other methods of training. An e-collar is not a tool for every dog and situation. Just because you feel it isn’t necessary for your dog does not mean it is unnecessary for everyone one. Try dealing with a 70 pound aggressive dog that has been traumatized and beaten by their owner from birth and rehabilitated them with “positive reenforcement”. It just isn’t reality. I rather save a dog and have him uncomfortable then have him put to sleep because he’s too aggressive. I guess i’m just cruel in that way.
I guess I too am cruel in that way,I just want to keep my little boy alive. we purchased a shock collar after our puppy continously chases coyotes and doesn’t return for hours, positive re-inforcement is VERY difficult when they have run away! we are trying to prevent him getting hit by a vehicle. Otherwise he is perfectly behaved and stays with us off his leash with ZERO problems, but if a coyote happens across the front of our house he is a goner and after too many chases and bouts of sickness due to worry we have choosen to try this method. We are actually praying it works and stops him in his tracks from chasing the coyotes. Don’t really know what else to do short of keeping him on a leash constantly, which isn’t really fair because other than this issue he is perfectly behaved. But if you have any further suggestions I would LOVE to hear them!!
So did you ecollar your kids?? There is no way any dog or sane person would choose to be ecollar trained. All I see from this post is a human choice for their dogs. Humane or not is up for debate. It’s the easy way out for the lazy trainer. Dogs don’t need to be shocked to be well behaved and trained. And trying to justify it on a public blog doesn’t change the fact that it is an evasive and unnecessary training choice. If you won’t use it on yourself or your children why subject your dog to it. If you aren’t willing to do real work to have a “good” dog. Then why have a dog. No matter how you justify it you are still shocking your dog with pain. No dog would choose that. No human would choose that. Do it to your child it’s considered abuse. It is no different with a dog. If you believe otherwise you are not a real dog lover. A dog is just property to you. And in that case why own a dog????
Hello OneBigAssDog, I do believe otherwise….so I guess that makes me not a real dog lover. Ah, well… Did you know that on July 20th, 1969 there were humans who did not believe we could ever land a person on the moon? I guess that makes them not real lovers of people who did believe we could land on the moon. I believe many things are possible when one has the intention to learn and a mind open enough to explore. Have a nice day and thank you for commentary. Robin
>>If you won’t use it on yourself or your children why subject your dog to it.<<
Because dogs aren't people?
Do you feed your child dog food? Do you make your child wear a leash and a collar? Do you put your child in a crate, or house him in a kennel when you go on vacation? If you don't do these things for your child or yourself, why subject your dog to them?
>>If you won’t use it on yourself or your children why subject your dog to it.<<
Because dogs aren't people?
Do you feed your child dog food? Do you make your child wear a leash and a collar? Do you put your child in a crate, or house him in a kennel when you go on vacation? If you don't do these things for your child or yourself, why subject your dog to them?"
Kevin, nice try. It is obvious dogs are not people or children, but they are not property or objects either! There have been studies done on how the e-collar affects dogs and their body language is a far cry from showing them being happy. See Matthijs Schilder and Joanne van der Borg study- for instance.
Personally,I am not sure how I would be able to cope with the results of such studies and continue to use an e-collar. I guess there must be a bit of guilt that makes people build a website to convince themselves and others how harmless shock collars are. The more I read articles by shock collar trainers the more I feel their articles are the fruit of some coping "defense mechanism" to feel better from using lazy training methods based on coercion.
If dogs were so happy to wear the e-collar, it would NOT be effective. E-collars are not clickers! So let's just be blunt and down to earth and admit that e-collars are not an object a dog would raise its paw and voluntarily say ''pick me! pick me!Please I feel like being shocked today". Let's get real!
The biggest problem I have with e-collar trainers is that they are often not honest with themselves and others. I have a higher respect for shock collars trainers who bluntly admit what a shock collar is than those who sugar-coat things. OK, you decide to use positive punishment, OK, you want to use an e-collar to stop unwanted behaviors, OK you say it is effective, OK you say it must be used on dogs that have not responded to other training methods. But please, please, stop lying about it! Shock is not a pat on the head, it is not a reward, it is not something the dog looks forward to, it is not something the dog voluntarily would choose! Even the name of this website is misleading 'the truth about shock collars". What truth are we talking about? The one you want us to see but that is a big fat lie? Credibility has gone to zero. I am sorry, I don't buy it, but some naive people people may and I feel sorry for that.
Hi again Andrienne. The Schiler & Van de Borg study is considered by many to have been poorly conducted according to scientific method, there were many pieces of information left out. You may be interested in reading this post: http://www.truthaboutshockcollars.com/85/remote-collar-training-what-does-science-have-to-say/
And since you are interested in what science has to say I would strongly suggest you read this study: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CG0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fleerburg.com%2Fpdf%2Fcomparingecollarprongandquittingsignal.pdf&ei=dF7jT9aXOILE2wWpj7SfDw&usg=AFQjCNGOwUPXs_zpCndbaba_U9u8oHqkCw
But a word of caution…there may be a “truth” you don’t want to hear and thus avoidance may be your best bet.
all the best,
Robin
Your response does not surprise me; when there are studies proving your facts wrong you all answer the same thing: they are not accurate, they lack credibility, they are crappy etc. Then the day when studies you somewhat believe support you comes out, they all suddenly become accurate, correct and the best in the world! I see how it works; how magical! I was reading part of the study you posted because I am open to educating myself, but abruptly stopped the moment I read the dogs developed a “conditioned anticipatory fear reaction”. That’s enough for me to confirm that the Matthijs Schilder and Joanne van der Borg study had truth to it. I don’t care if the shock was effective in rehabilitating the dogs or if the dogs learned to read in Chinese. I don’t care how and when they removed that fear response. It did happen. I know shock is effective, it’s the effects it creates that I have a trouble with. Oh, and did I mention I had to rehabilitate several dogs that were ruined by shock collars? Just as the study you posted, I had to fix all these fear reactions found in “remote controlled dogs”. There are tons of reputable dog trainers and behavior specialists who do not need shock to fix dogs.The path may be longer but it works on changing emotional responses rather than suppressing outward manifestations. You ask me to list who these great professionals are and I will not. Why? For the simple purpose you will say there is something wrong with them just as you did with the study:( Sounds fair, no? For what it is worth, feel free to do the same about me, I am just a crappy trainer who knows nothing and is just “seeing things” when dogs show subdued/fearful body language when they are shocked. After all, we don’t count nothing, so do the studies and so do the dogs:(
Hello Adrienne, I’m not sure where I have ever said you were a crappy trainer, nor alluded to that. I’m glad you are helping dogs live fuller lives. I am glad when any trainer helps a dog/owner have a more successful life together. I believe I do the same. I ask only to be judged by my work and to be allowed to make decisions with my clients that suit their needs. I attempt to be respectful in my responses to people although I get tremendous amounts of hate and nasty words directed at me. I am continually labeled a “shocker” a dog abuser, unethical and the like…but these labels seems to only come from people that have never meet me, never bothered to call me up to chat, nor taken the time to get to know me in any way. My clients, students and individuals who have actually met me seem to have a different view…even some of those people who may not train the way that I do have come to the conclusion I am not “evil”. We respect we have differing views and paths to getting to an end goal and that we both are achieving good and humane objectives with our clients and their dogs.
My purpose with this blog is to tell a part of the story that most aren’t telling..and that is that an e-collar can be used humanely and without deleterious effects. I believe that most aren’t telling that story not because they are hell bent on dispelling misinformation but because they have not taken any time to visit with someone who can do it well and take the path of simply repeating what they’ve heard and been told.
I am not anti-science but my point about studies is they can be designed to prove any point we wish to prove, so yes, while I read them and understand they have some value, they carry limited weight in my ultimate decision making. I don’t make my eating choices via all the studies either. They change all the time depending on who is doing the study and what theory someone wants to prove anyway. I find that much (not all) science now days is tainted. And some is simply ridiculous. It takes no rocket scientist to conclude that eating potato chips and Big Macs while slugging down diet sodas for the majority of your dietary intake is unhealthy. It takes no rocket scientist to prove that strapping a remote collar to a dog, turning it up to high levels and randomly pushing the button will create instability, anxious, superstitious behavior.
Adrienne,
“If dogs were so happy to wear the e-collar, it would NOT be effective. E-collars are not clickers!”
I am not understanding your statement: If dogs were so happy to wear the e-collar, it would NOT be effective. Are you saying training a happy dog with an ecollar is not effective?
I beg to differ with you on this. I have plenty of client who call thier remote collar controller their “clicker”!
I think it is interesting that the trainers discussed as lying to themselves about what an e-collar is, are described by Ines as using positive punishment. I assume you are familiar with the different methods of remote collar use? Wouldn’t it be negative reinforcement (that is becoming more commonly used), since the e-collar is stimulated until the behavior is committed to (as discussed and used by most trainers on this blog?) But we need to learn more about the quadrants of operant conditioning?
I was recently watching a video of Sophia Yin using a clicker to counter condition aggressive responses in a JRT when someone blew in its face. Blowing in the face of a dog isn’t necessarily painful for the dog, but was somewhat startling. By attaching a positively conditioned stimulus, to one that caused reactive behavior, she was able to change the dogs CER (conditioned emotional response) to being blown on.The dog actually started getting excited .If we can get past that electrical stimulation MUST be painful, and we clearly understand Operant and Classical conditioning, is it so hard to believe that the remote collar can actually have positive connotation? In many videos you will see the remote collar actually being used as a clicker. The other thing I would add, is if the clicker is not painful, why is it effective? The first time I used one, my dog, who is usually not fearful of anything, seemed quite startled and showed signs of stress and displacement. As the clicker was conditioned to a positive stimulus, his CER changed, and suddenly a dog with so much physiological signs of stress was showing great excitement to the stimulation. Had I not created the perception and association, the clicker would in fact have been punishment to this dog. Why is it we change the rules when we discuss remote collars? Why is it okay that a gentle leader be considered humane, when many dogs need long periods of conditioning and desensitization before we use it? I think it is about perception. Just my two cents, but I guess its just naive banter…
I think you perfectly know what I mean but are just playing because you are hoping I say something you can confront me with and prove me wrong.
Let’s switch the pancake. Since you are the expert: Why Do you think shock collars work? Can you compare the body language of a dog being clicker trained with the body language of a dog when it is shocked? Is a shock collar a conditioned reinforcer? If so, please explain how and why? What quadrants are used when using a shock collar and what quadrants are used when using a clicker? Do shock collars change the emotional state of the dog? when dealing with behavioral problems do you worry about the underlying emotional state or all you care is suppressing outward manifestations of behavior? What can be done to prevent superstitious behavior? Do you know what learned helplessness is and how do you avoid it? And most of all how do I deal with a person (a client of mine) that has been told by a trainer that shock is just a “tap” and has ruined his dog? How do I remedy that? Saying shock is just a tap is dangerous information that could lead to misuse and abuse! I am not sure if trainers and websites like this realize the amount of damage that can be done to dogs by owners who assume it is innocuous and the dog looks forward to it..just my 2 cents
I play golf and I play with my dog. I don’t play with my blog. I take it rather seriously.
Shock collars work because they provide information. What type of information is determined by the user. Yes, I can read and compare body language quite well. Would you like to provide examples you need me to analyze? If you do please provide video because it tells a much more thorough story than still photography. Or are you asking me to generalize and make assumptions without any actual work in front of me?
Yes, stimulation can be a conditioned reinforcer. It is possible to condition tactile cues just as it is to condition visual or auditory ones.
I use all quadrants when I train and the remote collar can move rather fluidly between several of them. My understanding of purist clicker trainers is they stick to positive R and – P…although not all clicker trainers that I have observed stay in those boxes. Yes, I do concern myself with changing the underlying emotional state of the dog when dealing with behavioral issues. I utilize numerous tools and techniques to assist in changing that emotional state and at times initial suppression may be the answer and will lead to a positive underlying change as well. To prevent superstitious behavior one must go through the e-collar conditioning process before using the collar in scenerio/situational work. Yes, I know what learned helplessness is and it is easily avoidable by going through the e-collar conditioning process and teaching the dog he/she actually has total control of the stimulation.
How do I remedy a dog that has had a poor learning experience with remote collars…I start from square one and retrain them. Been there and done it a number of times. What has been learned can be unlearned and reconditioned. Takes time, patience and knowledge just as other training problems do.
Have I passed your test? If not please be honest and admit there is nothing I can say short of exactly what you want to hear that will satisfy anyway. I am only guessing but I suspect anything other than what you want to hear is “all lies” coming from me anyway.
Regards,
Robin
I don’t think a dog would choose to eat kibble if steak were available. Who wants to sleep on a crappy dog bed, when there are nice soft couches and beds available? I would never put my 1-year-old baby on a leash (though I’ve thought about it:) ) but some parents do. I’m sure a dog, given a choice, would not want to be on a leash.
We feed our dogs the shit off of our plate that we choose not to eat. Fat from meat, etc. They eat it up happily. (Those who feed table scraps that is) Would you give your child a bone with raw meat on it to gnaw on?
Next time you’re at the pediatrician, ask the doctor to vaccinate your child in the back of his neck, since that’s how your dog is usually vaccinated.
Need I go on?
I have an adopted amstaff. I saved him from being euthanized. You seem to make a quick judgement of thins you don’t have experience in. My dog is a very aggressive dog towards other dogs. I spent over 4000 on trainers before deciding to use a shock collar. Positive reenforcement through low stim levels on a constant basis completely changed my dog. He is more confident, more trusting and i always have his attention which makes him more relaxed and far less neurotic. This compared to how other people trained him in retrospect is far less inhumane. I had trainers who just like you say “its disgusting inhumane etc… to use a shock collar” train my dog and subject him to the most stressful situations which only aggravated his situation regardless of how “positive” the training was. An opinion based on ignorance doesn’t make it reality. Your opinion is 100 percent ignorant. Dogs are not people, they do not think like people, function like people, feel pain the same way as us, want the same things as us. They are a completely different species. To compare a dog to a person as a basis for your argument shows a complete lack of any understand of the relationship between k9′s and people.
Lucy was on an e-collar before we got her. I know she would choose not to be on one ever again. Why? The e-collar was a scary experience for her. How do I know this? She has a sensitive temperament and a sensitive physique. We first discovered they had her on one when she heard a click and began looking around frantically trying to discover the source and looking like she expected to be stung by a wasp or worse. The previous people got rid of her because despite these sensitivities, the e-collar didn’t keep her in the yard when a bunny ran by. She would blast through the fence, have a great time chasing and catching the rabbits, then after her adrenaline levels had dropped, had to wait many hours until the people got home to let her back in how own yard. They finally got tired of the neighbors complaining about the chasing/roaming and tied her to a tire for 11 hours a day while they were gone. They complained that she peed on their feet all the time when she greeted them as they came home. Fear-related. As a result of being tied, she became destructive and destroyed a outdoor pool filter worth hundreds of dollars (among other things) . This all led to her being given away. Pretty traumatic for a dog.
So, I would say that she would choose to be trained using another method. Happily, she ended up with us, who use positive reinforcement. (Positive is not permissive. There’s a big difference). We have built her confidence, she no longer pees in fear, and she is now participating and earning qualifying legs in a variety of sports, plus is a demo dog to help people train their own service dogs.
Hi Donna, I am sorry to hear that the e-collar was a scary experience for your dog. That is not only sad, but obviously unfortunate and sets back not only training but the development of relationship. In hindsight, perhaps I should of stated “e-collar training done just right” but that too opens a can of worms because there are some who believe there is no such thing. Obviously I believe there is a right and wrong way to use the tool. As a general rule it should not be scary, painful or intimidating to the dog. Done in the way I prefer it is information of yes/no delivered in a non-scary or fear inducing way. Kind of like a gps that tells you when you are going off course. When I write I make the assumption that people understand that, but then I get lots of e-mail that convinces me otherwise…..which is exactly why I continue to educate. If people are going to make this decision for their dogs they need info on how to do it correctly.
The outcome of using the e-collar in a positive way means that a dog achieves those freedoms I spoke of way, way faster than any other method I’ve found. That is ultimately what I believe a dog would chose…the black and white communication that leads to faster comprehension and faster integration into the society we often have to keep them from because they “can’t behave well enough”. Thank you for sharing your story.
I think any well behaved dog will get more freedom- that does not depend on how it was trained though. You can accomplish that with kindness and patience or through an ecollar…
Hello Ines, An e-collar can be utilized with kindness and patience. It is a tool, how it is used is dependent on the knowledge of the person holding the remote. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Robin
My point is why would you choose to shock your dog when treats and play will suffice?…
Because Ignes, treats and play will not always suffice. The remote provides a higher level of realibility than other methods especially when the distraction for what the dog wants is too high.
Just read a few more comments down. You mention that if someone is willing to learn about how to accurately use an e-collar then you would be willing to teach them. On the other hand, have you ever learned how to use a clicker for training or other positive type methods? In much the same way you feel about people criticizing the e-collar, if you dont know everything about clicker training, it is hard to see how you could accurately criticize positive methods… Also, as with e-collars, there are trainers who do not know how to accurately train with a clicker..
Ignes, I use to be a clicker trainer and Master Third Way trainer. So I am quite familiar with +R and clicker training. I crossed over to being a balanced trainer who uses a very high percentage of +R. In fact my colleagues do too such as Robin and others, yet many +R folks for some reason incorrectly assume that just because one utilizes a remote collar that they aren’t familiar with +R which is a complete false assumption.
Though Ian Dunbar (a very well known positive lure trainer) does not endorse remote collars (he also doesn’t like clickers), he recently reminded folks at one of his academies that there are four quadrants of learning and not just two. He also said that unfortunately it is the +R people who tend to use +P on their clients and colleagues that he found very distasteful. I almost stood up applauding him because this has been my experience as well.
Ok, first of all my name is spelled I N E S – there is no “g”.. I still stand at if you wouldn’t put it on a child you shouldn’t put it on a dog… I know all about all four quadrants, but just because they are there doesn’t mean you need to use them. I would never punish my clients for any reason – they are paying me to get them to their goal. My goal is to do it in the most efficient and positive way possible.. (Efficient does not mean immediate.)
Hello Ines, may I ask how many children you have and approximately how many dogs you have trained in your career? Since we all tend to form our opinions based on our personal experiences I am always curious as to one’s background. TIA.
Robin
Case in point:
http://www.johnvanolden.com/why-are-positive-reinforcement-dog-trainers-so-negative/
Hi Ines,
Yes, I am very knowledgeable about clicker training having been a clicker trainer.
So I’ll turn your question around back to you…are you trained as an e-collar specialist and if not how can you talk negatively about something you have no specialized training or experience in using?
I agree, many dogs have lots of freedom and they never had to be shocked. I walk my dog off leash every day, we do not have a fenced yard and they enjoy every bit of freedom. It is no surprise why some of the best trainers and behavior experts out there can train without resorting to shock. I truly believe in this statement:
” To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need:
A thorough understanding of canine behavior.
A thorough understanding of learning theory.
Impeccable timing.
And if you have those three things, you don’t need a shock collar.
–Author unknown
Thank you for your comments Andrienne. I am curious how you define “best”? What is the criteria for an accomplished trainer or behavior expert in your opinion?
All 3 of my dogs have been trained with an ecollar. I think that they would have made that same choice, if they could. I also think it is important for us as the human to set the rules for our k9 partners. Like you said, if they have the choice it would probably be eating out of the trash, not getting a bath or nail trim.
A funny story that just happened. I was at a meeting for an upcoming dog event. Everyone (for the most part) knows my dog, since we have been a vendor at this event the last 2 years. One of the ladies was saying how great my dog was and that I should be part of the entertainment this year because my dog drew such a crowd last year. Another lady then started talking about training (they all know I am a trainer) and brought up a “shock collar”. One of the ladies cringed at the thought of a “shock collar” and stated “oh poor dog”. I then told her that my dog had been trained with a collar and she even had it on last year when she was drawing such a crowd. They all looked at me surprised. I then asked “did she look abused?” EVERY ONE of them said NO!! They didnt have any idea how she was trained, all they saw was her having a GREAT time (off leash by the way) at a very busy dog event!!
So back to the original conversation…… I think dogs do need structure, rules, etc. I think anyone who works with dogs would agree, even though they may not agree with the same training methods.
I believe my three dogs would choose the e-collar. Why? Because when I pull their remotes and collars off the charging cable, they swarm me, sit politely, and LITERALLY stick their necks out…with a full-body wiggle. They know that e-collar = clear communication, happy dogs, happy owners, and off-leash freedom.
They know I do not use their collars to punish or hurt them, but to help guide them in the right direction. Because of this, my dogs welcome their collars.