E-collar dog training: Would your dog choose it if you gave him the option?
Have you ever wondered if your dog would choose e-collar dog training? I spend a fair amount of time sleuthing the internet for information and opinions regarding e-collars or “shock collars” as some continue to call them.
One of the sentiments I’ve noticed lately being touted by those who wish to have the tool banned from existence is the idea that the dogs (our dogs) didn’t get to “choose” this form of training or this training tool. This statement is usually uttered in reference or testimonial that demonstrates a human subjecting themselves to e-collar stimulation for either comedic purposes or for the sake of visually elaborating on a concept. The typical commentary is: “well, the human had a choice about feeling that tool, those poor dogs don’t.”
That line of thinking got me pondering on the idea of choices for our dogs. I am curious how you feel about e-collar dog training and hope you chime into the conversation.
I’m all for giving my dogs some options, as in: do you want this toy or this one? Do you want to sniff out this trail or the one over there? But my personal outlook is that my dogs are my responsibility and as such I do make a lot of decisions for them. Here is a brief list of some of the decisions I don’t give my dogs a choice about.
I decide:
What they eat.
What vaccinations they get and how often.
What dogs I trust and allow them to interact with.
If they are allowed to swim or not.
When they need to get a bath, nails trimmed or ears cleaned.
If they get to remain intact or if they will be surgically altered (spay & neuter).
Why do I decide these things for my beloved companions and not give them “their choice”? Well, I feel fairly confident I will make better decisions for them than they would make for themselves. Case in point, my dogs would probably never chose to get vaccinated or take a bath or file their nails, they would likely make some bad choices and trust dogs that they shouldn’t. They would absolutely choose to eat trash and clean up every human left over they could. And for certain, Diva, would jump in the water and swim ANYWHERE despite a dangerous current.
So does the fact that I don’t allow my dogs too many choices make me some sort of evil dictator? If it does, I guess I am guilty of raising my kids that way also. I believe in applying structure, limitations and rules that I determine to be in the best interest of all.
When my charges (dogs or kids) clearly understand the rules I’ve created they actually get more freedom as a result. And they grow to a level of independence that I feel is our responsibility to teach them to have. One of my children is out of the house, putting himself through higher education and making his own way in the world. The second child will soon be following suit. And meanwhile my dogs no longer need to be kenneled or baby gated when I am away from the house and they are calm and well mannered if they are left in anothers care for a period of time. Through the choices I’ve made for them in e-collar “training” they have learned self control and the liberties that go along with that.
I honestly believe that if my dogs could speak for themselves they would choose the e-collar dog training and the subsequent freedom it brings with it.
They get to run off leash in unfenced areas, they get to be part of the party when there is company, they get to go along on most trips and they can be in public venues without being a nuisance.
Yes, I am the one responsible for making the e-collar dog training choice for my dogs. And as a result of it I do not have to make choices to withhold their freedom because “there are too many distractions around” nor do I have to limit their exploration to the end of a leash or clipped to a front pressure harness or head halter.
So what are your thoughts? Is it appropriate that we make the choices for our dogs training tools or exactly how does this argument stack up in your opinion?
Michelle, I apologize if I am wrong, but you seem to lack understanding of correction collars. Perhaps collars in general. Any collar can do significant damage, both mentally and physically to a dog. A flat collar can cause significant trachea damage to a dog, and has a pretty similar chance of choking a dog. While I am against choke chains, and never train with them, I do not condemn them if the person using them is skilled enough to do so properly. I have safely used prong collars many times, as well as remote collars. Any collar has the potential to injure a dog, as do many actions. We reduce this through vigilance, and education. So whether you are using a flat collar, gentle leader, martingale, prong collar, or remote collar the potential for damage is always there. People need to stop blaming tools, and start blaming the true cause of all damage done to all the dogs out there. Man kind.
I have three dogs, one has been e-collar trained for recall. The trainer I have gone to for years is a positive reward trainer…until she met my girl. My dog is extremely stubborn and willful and definitely has a mind of her own. We worked on her recall using positive reward based methods in group and private lessons for over a year and a half. She was a smart girl and excelled in all other aspects of obedience, but she absolutely would not come when called. It was finally my reward based positive trainer that suggested trying an e-collar. I was shocked to hear her suggest this.
So, I ordered a Dogtra collar and slowly started training a recall. I would never had tried this on my own. You definitely need to know what you are doing or you can ruin a dog. Training with an e-collar is not an appropriate tool to use on any dog for just any type on training. Using an e-collar to stop overly excited or aggressive behaviors can definitely lead to redirected aggression.
I would never think of using the e-collar on my other two dogs. Their personalities are such that I think it would backfire and make them shut down. However, they are not willful stubborn dogs like my other one.
I believe that every tool has it’s place. In the right hands, on the right dog, under the right circumstances an e-collar can be a valuable training tool.
As an obedience trainer and veterinary technician of 20 years I would have to make the case that electric collars, (for those of you flying off the handle already, did you know that electric collars can also use a spray of citronella or a vibration or even ultrasonic tones?) have their place in dog training. I have found it ironinc over the years that the people I hear badnouth the use of electronic collars the hardest usually have an unruly, choking itself to death, dog on a choke chain or prong collar. did you ever stop to think that those cause physical discomfort and pain or injury? And given the fact that most people use them incorrectly after grabbing them off the pet store wall and throwing them on the dog, they often cause a long term, lengthy discomfort or pain as the dog is continually choking or pinching itself, rather than the short, static busrt from an electronic collar. As for choices, can all of you on here honestly say you have made nothing but good choices for yourselves? Would you have chosen to have vaccinations as a child? Would you have eaten your brussel sprouts? Would you have gone to school?
I have seen animals hung on choke collars and have the prongs of a pinch collar imbedded in their necks. Those were the owners choices of collar, not the dogs. Everything, if used incorrectly, can cause harm. I see dogs all the time through work whose owners are killing them slowly with obesity and a horrible diet. But I bet given the choice on its own, that animal would keep on eating that horribly unhealthy food.
I make choices for my animals that will prolong their lives, give them a well rounded positive temperment, enable them to have much more personal freedom than they would otherwise. We currently have a deaf Great Dane puppy because some breeder made the choice repeatedly to breed dogs that shouldn’t even exist. he may lose his eyesight as well. He is being trained with a vibration remote collar because he cannot hear me to find me. He is already responding beautifully and is very happy he can run and play with our big Great Dane outside.
My dogs are my responsibility and it is my choice to raise them to be obedient well mannered animals. Would you rather see a 150 lb dog running full tilt at you while I shake a treat bag or look around for a clicker?
“Would you rather see a 150 lb dog running full tilt at you while I shake a treat bag or look around for a clicker?”
This seems to be a bit of a strawman. I could say the same thing: “Would you rather see a 150 lb dog running full tilt at you while I try to find the remote for the e-collar?” A poorly trained dog is a poorly trained dog, no matter what method of training one might employ.
I agree with you on choke chains and prong collars and the damage they can inflict. But not everyone who is against e-collars uses those. I’d prefer my dog to not hurt herself at all and I so I don’t use choke chains and prong collars, both of which are meant to be aversive and both of which carry the possibility for some pretty major damage (and which I see far too many folks leaving on while the dog plays, which is a recipe for disaster).
You prefer your dog “not hurt herself at all”?
What about when she runs into something, or makes a bad step while running, or encounters something that does cause her pain?
Or, to put it more bluntly, are you deathly afraid of walls and doorways when you stub your toe, or do you pull yourself together and move on, promising yourself you’ll be more aware of where your feet go?
Perchance you might find this an interesting read if you haven’t stumbled across it already. Because really, there are a lot of aversive things in nature. Whoever says life should be stress-free and painless has never lived, certainly not to the point where I want them giving ME advice on how to train MY dog, and to take money from me to give such advice should constitue nothing short of fraud.
http://ruthcrisler.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/undue-temperance/
As has been posted by someone else in another part of the internet, “Nonsense, human vanity and feelgood beliefs can, and often do far more lasting harm to dogs than corrections.”
Addendum: I post this just as an aside too, with the understanding that Robin and many e-collars trainers do not use the tool as an aversive, or a substitute for a collar correction.
The idea of an aversive stands, however.
And don’t forget what is aversive to us is not necessarily so for dogs–see this post.
I can attest though, that a stag beetle hurts just as much for me as it did my dog: we both are a little more careful when outside where they have traditionally been present.
I find anyone who WANTS their dog to hurt itself rather worrying. I’d rather she not run into things or deal with pain. I’d rather not deal with pain either. Is she GOING to hurt herself? Probably. Am I going to accidentally hurt her? Unfortunately yes. I’m sure we’ve all accidentally stepped on a paw before. But do I WANT her to experience those painful moments? Of course not. Will she? Of course. We all do.
But I find such things radically different than inflicting pain or uncomfortable feelings in the name of training. That I DO have control over and so choose to use positive reinforcement instead. It’s not much different than choosing to teach a child using positive reinforcement instead of smacking his/her hands when the answer is wrong.
It’s not human vanity to want to train without such things. And it’s also not doing any harm at all, much less lasting harm.
Yesterday I did an emergency consultation squeezing a client in my busy schedule because they were be sides themselves of what to do with their over engerized lab and their baby boy. They were mistaking the lab’s insistence on affection for being aggressive toward the boy. There was no display of aggression while I was there nor in their description. However, the dog was about to be surrendered to the shelter because of his over energized behavior, jumping, excessive licking, pulling on leash etc.
It was becoming impossible for the mother to care for her baby and the dog who was demanding even more attention than before. Using the remote collar at the “just right level” we taught the dog not to pull and to heel within five minutes or less and the licking, head butting, pawing, grabbing arms with his mouth for attention ceased immediately by using the vibration mode of the remote collar. Two of their concerns were solved almost immediately which gives them hope on being able to train their loveable but excitable lab good manners over the next few weeks.
Because of the remote collar, this lab will remain in his home he has had for six years. Whereas, prior to the appt, he was on his last few days of going to the shelter.
I have seen dogs rubbing there noses on the ground till it’s raw trying to get a gentle leader off. Pretty aversive if you ask me. I think all dogs have the potential to be well trained, unless there is a medical reason as to why they can’t. I am very careful about using the word dominance around others on forums, and blogs. It does exist, yet since the debunking of dominance theory people think it is completely non existent. As a pack leader runs by a subordinate pack member and shoots him a look, the subordinate lowers his head offering appeasement behaviour. That is dominance. When people haer dominance they think of it on a physical level. Which is not often the case with dogs. Dominance aggression does exist, but is pretty uncommon, and most often mistaken for fear aggression. Dominance aggression usually shows as raised hackles, ears pinned up and slightly to the side (in kind of a v shape), tail up and stiff but possibly slightly wagging and a raised head with the corner of the lips pulled back. Though majority of the time aggression is a learned fear based behaviour. Last time I used the word dominance on a blog post it started quite an uproar.
I have seen dogs rubbing there noses on the ground till it’s raw trying to get a gentle leader off. Pretty aversive if you ask me. I think all dogs have the potential to be well trained, unless there is a medical reason as to why they can’t. I am very careful about using the word dominance around others on forums, and blogs. It does exist, yet since the debunking of dominance theory people think it is completely non existent. As a pack leader runs by a subordinate pack member and shoots him a look, the subordinate lowers his head offering appeasement behaviour. That is dominance. When people here dominance they think of it on a physical level. Which is not often the case with dogs. Dominance aggression does exist, but is pretty uncommon, and most often mistaken for fear aggression. Dominance aggression usually shows as raised hackles, ears pinned up and slightly to the side (in kind of a v shape), tail up and stiff but possibly slightly wagging and a raised head with the corner of the lips pulled back. Though majority of the time aggression is a learned fear based behaviour. Last time I used the word dominance on a blog post it started quite an uproar.
I know that dogs can be trained to be off leash reliable using +R training. I have been impressed by some. However, as a professional dog trainer, it is not my job to “start from scratch” with a puppy or train the “easy” dogs. (Anyone who says that all dogs are equally easy to train is lying… or doesn’t know anything about dog training.) It is often my job to train the difficult dog. The dog who has many established behavior problems. The dog who is naturally too dominent or too stubborn or too shy or too prey driven. You get the idea. So I’m interested in a tool that will help me accomplish the BEST results with the MAJORITY of dogs the MAJORITY of the time. I, personally, am a big believer in the remote collar. When used properly, it allows owners to see the best results with the least stress on the dog. I do not believe that everyone needs to use the remote collar on their dogs. In fact, you should only use a tool if you’re comfortable with it. But the remote collar is MY tool of choice. That said, I can tell you that my lab mix used to run away when she saw the Gentle Leader in my hand; now she wags her tail and sits when she sees the remote collar in my hand. So I believe my dog chooses it, too.
Hahaha! I’m a violent type, what a joke coming from someone that is so adamant that people make assumptions about her. I guess I’m self violent too since “They make me want to rip off my ears and also beat the snot out of the person using them. ” No mention of wanting to ripping off my ears because I find the noise so aversive.
If people want to train with clickers, e-collars, prongs, fairy farts, whatever, if you are successful and your students are successful that is all that matters to me. As it is, I will keep expanding my training toolbox to include any tools that I don’t find aversive. So, no standard clickers and no citronella collars.
Look all you so called “dog trainers”….if had not been for the remote collar (after every other kind of training, treats, choker,pinch etc) I was on my way to give up my pup…but one other trainer said they promised they could help….and all of my goals and expectations were and have been exceeded beyond whatever I could imagine…matter of fact shes won titles with akc obedience and we all know (no training tools or lures) are allowed in the ring..hmmm..all off leash? Yep. With humans, dogs, and some of the highest distractions one can fear? Yep. Well, I”ll be, first places to boot!!! Here is my my main question, Why in the world can we just not all agree sometimes it takes more than one method to truly communicate with our furry best friends? I just wish my little Sophie and I had had “both” chosen the remote as our first choice, not the last….training is about having the dog understand what we are asking them to do and do it happily..guess what? My dog does just that.
Interesting debate. I think of myself as a balanced trainer after having been on both extremes. During my journeys as a trainer I’ve learned to never say never. For me, personally, clickers are highly aversive. They make me want to rip off my ears and also beat the snot out of the person using them. But, if another trainer wants to use them, great. I just don’t allow them in the classes I teach for the above reason. If a student can find one that doesn’t bother me, and a few have found some, then I lift that rule.
Tools are just that, tools. And I don’t understand why some people can’t understand why training isn’t an all or nothing proposal. Use what works for you, your students and the dogs.
You know, I see so many dogs come to my classes at 18 months and older whose owners tried clicker training and completely screwed up the poor animal. clicker training requires a deep understanding of classical and operant conditioning and counterconditioning and shouldn’t be for the beginner. It makes me cringe to see these pet stores teaching with a clicker after certifying their staff with a whopping two week course. I see more damage caused by incorrect clicker training than any other type of training right now. Worse, I see it turn many pet owners off of going to obedience classes because they had such a bad experience with clicker training.