I received a post card in the mail the other day. It is an ad for Ian Dunbar’s workshop that is currently touring the US. The title is: Science-Based Dog Training with Feeling. I’m thinking about going because the information makes it sound as though Dr. Dunbar is promoting some use of consequence as a responsible part of dog training, which makes me curious about the presentation.
I’ve seen Dr. Dunbar in the past, in fact his tapes Sirius Dog and Puppy Training were some of the first material I studied way back in the early 90’s when I was learning more about training and how dog’s learn. He has a lot of excellent information and I learned a great deal about lure and reward and variable schedule of reinforcement, body language, etc. But I also knew Dr. Dunbar was not much of an advocate for balanced training or the use of any type of aversive. So this new information sounded intriguing.
In chatting with some friends, I learned that a colleague of mine had attended one of his East coast events late last fall. I asked for a brief review and was a bit dismayed what I heard. So I asked Renee of Follow Me Dog Training to write up a review for all of you.
I’m curious to hear your feedback and if anyone else has attended and what you thought of the presentation. I have not decided yet if I will attend when he comes this way. I keep praying for the day when all dog trainers will truly carry themselves as pros and give the dog world the credibility it deserves. If the leaders of the industry can’t walk the walk….what are the dog owners to think? 🙁
“You don’t understand anything until you learn it more than one way.”
I love this quote by Dr. Minsky. I totally agree. As a student in college I learned how to approach history from all different angles, how to understand all different cultures and societies. I also relished the idea that the more I learned, the better I could approach any aspect of my life. When I became a dog trainer this idea was never truer.
Throughout my short (15 years) dog training career I have done my best to continue my education. I have attended schools, workshops, seminars, and conferences centered on all arenas of dog training and handling. I have had the opportunity to learn from some of the top trainers in my field and even had the opportunity to teach remote collar work to dog trainers at the That’s My Dog! E-cademy. I specialize in training dogs with a remote collar but that certainly isn’t the only way to train a dog, so I supplement my remote collar training with many other methods and techniques as I am sure many other trainers do as well. Bottom line though, the learning never stops.
The one thing about dog training that a lot of the average public doesn’t know is that there are many different ways to train a dog and in my opinion there is no ONE way. I believe, to be a good dog trainer, it takes experience and the ability to pull any tool out of your box and create a bond and level of communication between dog and owner. Just like dogs need to learn in every aspect of their life, we need to learn how to adjust to the differences in each dog and if you are a trainer of people, differences in human learning. Everyone’s definition of a “trained dog” is not the same and I do not believe that every dog can be trained the same.
In early October of 2010 I had the opportunity to attend a seminar given by Dr. Ian Dunbar. The title of the seminar is, Science Based Dog Training (with Feeling). I had previously seen a presentation by Dr. Dunbar in 2007 at the International Association of Canine Professionals annual conference. I hadn’t had the opportunity to catch all the presentation then, so I was looking forward to what Dr. Dunbar was lecturing about. You can do your own research on the accomplishments of Dr. Dunbar. It is even quite possible you have read a book or seen a video of some of his training. I had even previously incorporated a few of his techniques into my own personal dog training tool box. Needless to say, he understands dogs and science and is a big advocate of training dogs. I was very sad that dogs were not allowed to attend; it made me wonder how he was going to give practical application examples. I later learned that as Dr. Dunbar said himself “Half the dogs at seminars shouldn’t be there because they are dog trainer’s dogs.” And that is when I really started learning….
I learned a lot, what I learned though wasn’t just more methods and techniques for my dog training toolbox. That was the unfortunate thing. I learned that there is a large biased and uninformed section of the dog training community that are unwilling and unapproachable when it comes to learning about different dog training tools. I was appalled by the snide remarks, off hand comments and general hatred towards other members in the many canine professions who do not train dogs like they believe it should be done. I felt as a remote collar trainer like an outsider and that I was at risk of being thrown out and insulted for believing and knowing that a tool like a remote collar can help millions of dogs and their families. I felt it safer to take notes and learn what I could from the speaker then to stand up and try to change a room full of people that had no interest in continuing to grow in their profession. I think the saddest part though, was that Dr. Dunbar was at the forefront of insulting and debasing the use of remote collars in dog training. Don’t get me wrong, he also insulted some other methods…mostly the ones that weren’t his. He managed to insult an Association of over 1000 members (the very Association that had made him a Hall Of Fame Member for his work in dogs), Cesar Milan, leash and collar trainers and any trainer that didn’t train dogs his way
Phrases like: “hurt”, “painful”, “electric s#!t”, “non- instructive reprimand”, “you are the problem if you have to press the button more than once”, “bubba with his shock collar”, “punish” and “abuse” were all used liberally when the subject of remote collars were brought up.
I was astounded so I started keeping track of the insults around the actual useful bits of dog training information he was giving. I began to wonder why a man so respected in his field would feel the need over a three day seminar to take time out of his lecturing to insult other trainers and their tools at least once an hour.
It took me a few months to be able to pull my brain around the confusion that it faced after the last day of the Seminar. Why should a specific tool cause so much confrontation? Why won’t Dr. Dunbar take the time to learn from others as we were there to learn from him? Why is it necessary to insult and degrade if people don’t train dogs the way you do?
The thought that always won out was, what people don’t understand threatens them. Many of what we would call the “purely positive” dog trainers don’t and won’t take the time to understand remote collars because of people like Dr. Dunbar. The fact that there are many dog trainers that successfully use remote training collars in a non-confrontational, fun, learning fashion threatens some other trainers. They hear how “shock collars” are abusive or punitive and are told how evil the remote collar is, and they believe them. There is no follow through, no continuing education, no learning in more than one way. And so they feel threatened by what they don’t understand.
Dr. Dunbar is a scientist; he has been researching dogs for longer than I have been alive. He has some amazing dog training information to share with the world…I just wish he would keep some of his negative thoughts to himself so that other people can make their own decisions on how to train their dog. At the risk of filling your head with false information I’m going to list some of these Dunbar quotes from the seminar, what would you think if you were bombarded with these thoughts?
“Shock collars will be gone in 10 years. There is precedence overseas. They are done”
“Shock collars don’t work to strengthen the bond; they only make the dogs more fearful”
“The three worst things to wean your dog off are, a leash, a shock collar and a treat bag.”
“Just because it works, doesn’t mean it is the right way to do it”
“You shouldn’t have to shock a dog more than 3 times, that is just an advertisement that you don’t know how to train, shock is painful so if you can’t train with one shock you are the problem”
“The conference at the International Association of Canine Professionals was filled with dogs wearing shock collars. There were too many dogs on shock collars, that is NOT training and there were no trained dogs at the conference because they were all wearing shock collars.”
“Bubba with the shock collar never takes the collar off and is constantly punishing the dog”
“We see people jerk forever and shock forever, that is not punishment training, that’s abuse.”
When someone asked Dr. Dunbar “Why are shock collars used in training then?” this was his answer: “It is horrible that they are because there is no proof of reliability, it is wrong because so many trainers have proven themselves to be hopeless dog trainers, and shock collars will do a lot of damage and make the dogs life miserable”
If you have ever learned how to use a remote collar from an educated instructor, or seen a remote collar trained dog perform to the best of their ability or even just taken time to learn about remote collars, the statements above make your blood boil a bit…trust me I felt the need many times to get up, walk out and not worry about the loss of my seminar fee…but I understand that there are more than one way to learn and I was learning!
One last quote from Dr. Dunbar and I’ll wrap up the insane weekend that this seminar provided me with. “In the Shock collar world, Bubba shocks the dog without letting them get it right or showing them how to and then making them do the task” To me this quote sums up the fact that Dr. Dunbar is unwilling to learn and understand about modern remote collar training. Ask any one of my clients and they will tell you that one of the things I repeat over and over in all my lessons is the importance of telling the dog what to do and showing or helping the dog perform the task consistently for a period of time before we assume the dog has full understanding. I would never allow one of my clients (or myself) to shock a dog for no reason, to shock without teaching. I would never put a remote collar, prong collar, slip collar, bag of treats, head halter, gentle leader in the hands of a dog owner without teaching them how to use it to the best of the dogs ability.
I don’t feel the need to justify my choice of training tool, nor do I force all dog owners to use my tool of choice. I hope that anyone that is interested in creating a language and bond with their dog will look to many different resources and go with what works best for them and their situation. I would also hope that in the dog training world, the canine professional’s world, that we can all support a balanced and humane way of working with animals. There are so many horrible factors in the world that dogs face be it, dog fighting, breed specific legislations, puppy mills and hording or true abusive situations with dogs that we shouldn’t be at odds with each other within our own profession.
Was the Dr. Dunbar seminar worth the $270? I would have to answer yes. I learned a great deal about dogs, theory and science. I also learned that there is a lot of hatred to many dog professionals and the tools they use. Will I ever go to another Dunbar seminar? Possibly, I would recommend it to my fellow professionals, you’ll learn what you are up against if you are not on the “purely positive” dog training route, but you will also learn a few pretty cool tidbits along the way…Dunbar has been researching dogs a long time and really does have some interesting information to share amongst the barbs and insults.
Do you have questions about dog training? Questions about methods, tools or techniques that will help you make life with your dog the best it can be? Ever wondered if a remote collar would work for you and your dog? I would be more than happy to talk to you about the benefits of a remote collar or I can find a remote collar trainer near you that would be willing to talk to you about the benefits of this amazing tool. There are some really good resources out there like www.truthaboutshockcollars.com. But really I think that testimonials of people that have used a remote collar and been taught by a trained professional are some of the best resources.
I am greatly alarmed by the personal and emotional bias that Mr. Ian Dunbar is sending to the world of dog training. To suggest that all electronic collar training is abusive, inhumane or unsafe is outrageous. It has taken awhile for the Wikipedia entry on “shock collars” to even cover the advances of modern electronic collar training. AND YES, there are scientific references to methods and approaches of how electronic collars can and ARE FREQUENTLY used as “conditioned reinforcers” similar to clicker training by using the vibration (not shock) components and features of the collar.
I recently studied and adopted the CPDT-KA for business reasons only. I have extensive science education from the top universities in the country, and most dog trainers do not even have a college-level course in psychology or cognition & behavior. And yet, because many years ago, I did not have the CPDT-KA or was not a published author of many years, I have been greatly insulted by the vitriol of other dog trainers calling me “junior” or “entry level.” The problem is that these sh*theads never show how well-trained their dogs are and never show a dog in public. AND YET I DO. So I really wonder … who is all full of crap talk and who actually gets the job done? Certainly not those who are trying to make a business out of just talking about dog training, rather than spending time with real people and real life situations, one-on-one.
The CCPDT recently established a stance against correcting dogs with e-collars but accepts vibration e-collars. And their hierarchy of “Humane” practices divides the quadrants of operant conditioning in an order of preference. Who the hell in dog training divides operant conditioning in order of preference, when all four quadrants happen seemlessly and fluidly at any given moment? Release of leash pressure to increase desired of behavior is Negative reinforcement; giving the dog the treat for a good sit is Positive Reinforcement; leaving the room when the dog jumps is Negative Punishment and so far…all of this HAPPENS in dog training, how can you possibly order them???? Moreover wouldn’t it make sense if they educated trainrs the FLOW of operant conditioning in a variety of contexts and situations, while EMPHASIZING the use of rewards (or removal of them?) I mean seriously.
Here is a good blog post about the subject.
http://ruthcrisler.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/a-letter-to-the-ccpdt/
I am almost insulted that I spent $400 to take this ridiculously basic exam on a below college level understanding of psychology and animal behavior. ANYONE with the CPDT-KA is just demonstrating they have taken an exam, gotten a few references on dog training, and pledge to certain politics and ideologies. YES, I am going to be one of those CPDT-KA with foot in my mouth and rolling my eyes every time another severely under-skilled and under-educated CPDT-KA claims that all electronic collar training is “negative reinforcement only” and that there is only one method of training called “positive reinforcement only.” Good god, save me from stupidity. But I guess that is what I have to put up with so I can have my job and pay the bills, and of course, having dogs that are actually well-trained on high levels is secondary. People are complicated (based on their ridiculous politicking and emotional biases.) Dogs are simple. No wonder I prefer dogs over people.
Thank your for your comments. I agree with you entirely. There is little logic and way too much emotion being put forth in this industry. The dogs and their owners are paying the price for ridiculous ideology being crammed down their throats. The idea that vibration is somehow more humane than stim is completely off base. Who ever has agreed to adopting that stance has obviously NOT trained dogs with e-collars or vibration. I have nothing against vibration collars and use the function in a variety of situations, but there are MANY dog’s who respond in a very startled fashion to vib and there are equally those who completely ignore it. Vibration does not have the variability of intensity. It is often too strong and causes a startle response, I demonstrated that with a dog in my first DVD, Just Right. Where as with stim, I could adjust the intensity much lower and the little guy did wonderful.
anyway….keep speaking out and keep on doing the job of helping people have a well trained dog. We will continue to lead by example and show people what is really possible through training
that works as nature does….flowing seamlessly between all quadrants.
Wow, Robin.
I’m new to this blog stuff, but it’s soooo refreshing to hear about various perspectives. All I see on searches for dog training is Positive Only. It’s sad that shelters and rescues advocate this method to the growing (and largely unknowing) public who are trying to do a kind thing by rescuing a dog. People seek help from these so called authorities who send free training with no results. (My dog trainer has retrained hundereds of dogs from the Sirius school.) I appreciate your vision of dogs in society and found it hilarious that dogs were not allowed to attend the Dunbar conference. What does that say?! http://stabledogs.blogspot.com/
“Shock collars will be gone in 10 years. There is precedence overseas. They are done”
Hahaha? Here in Germany they’re working on re-legalize the e-collar with a great chance of success!
My response when receiving marketing to promote this seminar was NOT diplomatic or PC. I also have the view that the myths and misconceptions promoted have more to do about $$$$ and marketing than anything else, if I might be frank.
“The conference at the International Association of Canine Professionals was filled with dogs wearing shock collars. There were too many dogs on shock collars, that is NOT training and there were no trained dogs at the conference because they were all wearing shock collars.”
The first sentence is undeniably true.
I agree with the first clause of the second sentence. I have said so myself many times.
The last clause, which seems to be a paraphrase, is not strictly the case.
My own dogs were there, have never been trained on shock collars. Of course, at that particular conference they were forbidden to express their training, good manners, good judgment and reliability because they were required to be on leashes, to the IACP’s eternal shame. At previous conferences, my dogs had rarely been on-leash.
However, in spirit, this last clause is largely true. When a trainer’s seven or eight year-old demo dog is still wearing an electronic collar and I see the owner’s thumb on the button button button constantly, I question the claim that the dog is “trained.” Just as I question the same claim if the mature “demo” dog is being stored in a crate instead of holding a stay during down time, having his neck yanked over and over, or being lured about and bribed from a permanent bait pouch.
I really believe that it can be hard for common dog owners and some trainers to use common sense to train a dog just becouse they ignore what to do, how to communicate with their pets correctly. There are various comments critizising Dr. Dunbar. The guy can be the greatest jerk or the biggest dummy that have ever existed but if someone is going to say that his trainig method is better that what Dr. Dunbar teaches, people defenitly expect to have scientific facts along with their explanation. Someones opinion is never going to be enough.
I have heard Dr Dunbar speak at least 3 times during my 15 year career training dogs. I have always loved his puppy training techniques. And I have always found his professionalism questionable as he seems picks apart someone, the owners or other trainers. When he stated that none of the dogs at the IACP conference were trained, he very conveniently left out that when he tried to show how untrained a dog in attendance really was, he got Jeb, Paula McCollum’s Bluetick Coonhound, who has an OTCH, up on the stage. It took him quite a while to get the dog to miss a command. As they left the stage, Dr Dunbar said that Jeb was the best trained dog he had ever met. And yet now he says they were all untrained? Selective memory? It makes me question his perception on a lot of other things. I recently got a postcard about his lecture coming to my area later this year. I think I’ll pass and hang on to my money this time.
When I watched a video of Dunbar saying dogs aren’t pack animals I knew the guy was worthless. When I watched a video of Dunbar saying dogs don’t use dominance amongst themselves — don’t even understand the concept — I knew the guy was doubly worthless. When I watched a video of Dunbar speak derisively of Cesar Millan I knew this clown was Triply worthless. When I saw on his website that all it took to become a member of his organization was you gave him $100 via credit card I gave up all thoughts that Dunbar was anything more than a pretentious charlatan. If anyone has any video evidence of him doing anything other than teaching a puppy to sit and to follow him with cookies in his hand please post it, because as far as I can tell his experience pretty much stops right there. Pathetic.
As an aside, you might be interested to read how the Terrierman interprets Dunbar. He’s compared to Millan, but only because that was the big debate at the time.
http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2010/03/cesar-millan-secret-is-human-training.html
My take-away from this review, as well as my own personal experience, is that as trainers that aren’t in the “politically correct” camp, it’s important to focus on how we can help each individual client with our tools and approach. Ultimately, that’s what people are interested in, being given solutions, being able to live happily with their dogs and how the trainer can help them do that. This argument over training tools, political correctness, “humaneness,” and name calling exists primarily in dog training circles, and not as much in the general public, which is where our clients are from. But I have found that in the past, when I focused my attention on this argument when speaking to potential clients, when I started to speak to the ineffectiveness of a different training approach or tool, even if they specifically asked, “What do you think about XYZ training approach,” that’s when I lost their respect and their business.
The “side” that takes the high road, continues to be open and welcoming, promotes their tool and approach, and keeps the focus on the positives of how they can provide solutions and help people and their dogs, will win out in the end. The side that closes ranks, focuses their attention on the negativity of name-calling and discrediting will ultimately lose out; people can see through it and people are turned off by that negativity. I’m really proud to be part of the side that has, for the most part, kept to the high road and I hope we continue to stay focused on the positives of what we’re doing, rather than the negatives of what others may be doing. It’s ironic, really.
Renee, thanks for sharing! Wow, what an excellent write up. I’m impressed with your balanced approach to the seminar. Hopefully, Dr. Dunbar would be willing to learn from Robin or those of us trained by her, that there are remote collar trainers out there that use it in a non hurtful communicative way at “just the right level.”
This person just likes to take things personally. I would if I felt someone is critizising the job ive done with love for fifteen years. All the text sounds like Dr.Dunbar hurt his feelings but tell us nothing about Dr. Dunbar’s work, if its truly more efective, why or why not and if hes method works better why does he think it does and on what he bases himself to know the elctric shock does not hurt dogs. The text is completly useless.