Libby Davies, MP Vancouver East is supporting this ban shock collars petition and presenting to parliament.
I have a question for you Ms. Davies and the 1400 who signed this petition…can you please explain your decision to Cindy who has MS and has already tried 3 other trainers and just about gave up on her dog before she found a humane and effective solution with a remote dog training collar.
Granted, I understand the reason most people sign these ban shock collars petitions. Most of them have no first hand experience with the tool. They haven’t seen them or worked with them. Heck on this petition there is no age restriction…so apparently a 5 year old can sign it.
It is easy for the petition writers to paint a horrific picture of abuse when you use words like *shock collar*. What caring, dog loving individual would not support a ban on such a barbaric idea as *shocking dogs*?
You can take a look at all the emotive “information” I’m speaking of. Lots of pictures of very sad looking dogs and snippets of quotes from either people not named or people who have never had experience using the equipment.
We already know that the “collars burning dogs” stories are not true. Remote collars can not “burn” they do not generate heat. Collar sores are a result of pressure necrosis (the collar is left on too long and therefore causes tissue damage) the manufacturers even warn about it in their manuals and advise limiting wear time. The same outcome happens with flat buckle collars, chain or prong AND head halters left on too long and we have all seen the pictures that prove it.
We also know that the most recent studies on e-collars demonstrated higher learning effects than the positively only trained dogs and less stress behaviors than dogs trained with pinch collars.
But what really chaps my hide on the ban shock collars site is much of it’s burden of proof are stories of collars used on kids. Are we supposed to extrapolate that banning this tool will stop child abuse? Does anyone seriously believe that unstable people who abuse kids or anyone else will stop because you take this particular tool off the market?
I certainly don’t deny that their are still individuals who may abuse this tool…but does that mean no one should have access to it? Abuse is abuse and individuals should be held accountable.
It is not about the tool.
So if you are considering supporting such a petition I urge you to think about people like Cindy and all the other 3 million that bought these products in North America just in 2010 (sales numbers provided to me from Dogtra, Tri-tronics and Radio Systems Corp) That is just in 2010 and these tools have been around for 50 years. If they are such torture devices and they cause such horrid outcomes when used on the dogs… then where is the over whelming evidence? We should be seeing these trembling, sad dogs on every street corner.
enough of my rant for today. Congrats to Cindy for not giving up after working with 3 other trainers and nothing worked. Kudos for persevering and finding a solution that keeps Rozy in your home and happy. A lot of people would of quit and took the dog back to the shelter.
Individuals who sign these short sighted “ban shock collars” petitions owe you and many others an apology.
I have had Australian Blue Heelers for the past 25 years, they are my breed of choice.
When I lost my last one in 2008 I began my search for another one. I had always used a breeder before but this time decided to rescue an adult dog from the Burnaby SPCA. There I found the very lovable Rozy. She was 4 1/2 yrs. I was told she was not socialized, living her entire life in the back yard, surrounded by a chain link fence. The SPCA spayed her and released her into my care 2 days later. Yea!
Rozy rode well in the car home, walked by my side well. A perfect Velcro dog!
Then we went inside my home, she sniffed at things and then happily went to the bathroom on the floor, smiling up at me the whole time. Oh! She wasn’t house broken, silly me! One of the reasons I had wanted an older dog was to avoid puppy training. I have MS and didn’t think I had the strength or energy for that again. Surprise!
Rozy got me out walking several times a day, in all types of weather. It took 1 month to fully housebreak her. But the real challenge was to come.
I noticed that as Rozy got more comfortable with me she began to display some uncontrollable behaviour around other dogs. Especially “yappy” dogs. She would do a quick lunge, not biting but scaring them and their owners, and nearly knocking me off my feet.
I took Rozy to 3 different dog trainers over the next 5 months. All would train me & Rozy well at their place but when I left them Rozy would be back at her lunge routine within 1 week.
I was doubting my ability to keep Rozy, but I did love her. I went online and looked for a trainer in my area. That was where I learned about Sit Happens. I was not too hopeful when I initially spoke with Jeff, but he sent a trainer over to my place. I was taught how to use the E (electronic) Collar. This great device has been such a benefit to humanely get Rozy’s attention and modify her behaviour around other dogs and people. Rozy is much more confident now. Sit Happens took the time to teach me how to train Rozy with the E- Collar. It has given me the ability to keep my loveable Rozy.
Rozy has responded so well! Jeff assessed Rozy as a reactive, not aggressive dog. We go to outdoor training with 20 or more dogs. They are all responsive to the owners, including my Rozy!
Rozy is now 61/2 yrs. old. I can walk down the street with Rozy, past other dogs and there is no lunging. I even take her to my neighbourhood park off-leash and others are praising her good behaviour. I tell them to phone Sit Happens. It works for Rozy and me!
I thank God for Rozy and Jeff and the crew at Sit Happens. They truly love dogs and want to improve the relationship between dogs and their human pack.
Sincerely,
Cindy Mason and Rozy too!
If you are thinking of signing the ban shock collars petitions, please be very aware of who you are affecting.
The problem with shock collars is most of the people who use them are assholes and are torturing their dog. A shock collar is a dog training tool and I am for them. I am against assholes that use them on every dog and basically claim they are a dog training method. In Sacramento during 2007, my business had 986 new clients. Some clients had more than one dog. I ordered them for my clients four or five time THE WHOLE YEAR, mostly for barking and prey drive aggression. I say ban assholes and so-called professional dog trainers who use them on ever dog (even bigger assholes). In conclusion, electronic collars are a vital and necessary dog training tool for a very small percentage of dogs and their owners.
Hi David,
I’m not sure who the *majority* is that you are labeling *assholes*. The majority that I see are pretty conscientious in their use. And even the majority of people who purchase an e-collar who don’t have the education of how to use it, use it sparingly because they realize they are actually a bit afraid of the technology. Most people show hesitation with things they don’t understand. They may purchase the tool out of frustration but when it comes down to pushing the button, they don’t use it much because they don’t want to *hurt* their dogs. That has been my experience and I’ve used and specialized in this tool for over 10 years.
As for trainers who use e-collars exclusively…it is a choice. Personally I don’t believe it makes the trainer good or bad. Their skill level with the tool makes them *good* or *bad* with that tool. I prefer the use of e-collars and those clients who chose to work with me understand it is my preferred tool. If they want to do wireless communication with their dog, I am their trainer. If that is not what they want, there are many others available to provide the services they are looking for.
I feel it is like any other profession, clients have choices in how they want to do things, what they want to learn and some service providers choice to special in certain niche areas…others don’t.
Well, I support the ban on shock collars. This is a real letter from a person who sought my training advice just this morning:
“We have a 10 month old Black Lab. When we brought her home at age 3 months we would take her on walks everyday and she loved them. Our home has an invisible fence that we have trained her with in the last two months. She is now frightened to go on a walk. I make sure she knows we are changing collars and getting her walking leash. The excitement is there when I say let’s go for a walk, but once we get outside she will just lay down. I have tried to get her to go toward the street with a treat once and that did not work. Short of picking her up and carrying her to the street to show her that it is ok, I don’t know what to do.”
This poor puppy is afraid of her whole yard, not just the fence line. So, what would make her so afraid that she just shuts down and lies down? The fact that she got shocked in her yard, that’s what. She now thinks of it as a dangerous place. Do we really want to risk our dogs thinking that way just because WE are too lazy or inept or uneducated as to not take the time to do proper recall and boundary training? The simple solution, even for lazy people, is NOT to shock the dog, it’s to fence the dog – and there are inexpensive alternatives to e-fences. Use deer fencing! Unobtrusive, cheap, effective, and NOT likely to terrify your dog or allow thieves to quickly get at your dog, which e-fence does not prevent. People, please educate yourselves about clicker training, and understand that the same brilliant looking obedience can be obtained without the use of coercive training. My dog has an advanced title and was trained without choke chains, e-collars, prong collars, or even the word “no” – she works toward getting a reinforcment for her effort, and not to avoid a punishment.
And once again one blames the instrument, not the user!
Here are my 3 ‘e-collar victims”. Stopping when asked (at 2.20 minutes) even in a very high drive.
And clearly they’re scared out of their wits!
And once again one blames the instrument, not the user!
Here are my 3 ‘e-collar victims”. Stopping when asked (at 2.20 minutes) even in a very high drive.
And clearly they’re scare out of their wits!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHHFcLbgHY8
I was reading this post and wanted to offer some suggestions for those considering e-fences. I do believe in the option of using remote collars and e-fences, while I can say personally, I have never been a fan of e-fences. When considering what kind of fence to put up, one should consider several advantages and disadvantages.
E-fences
-offer no protection from outside dogs
-do not stop people from entering your yard
-should be set-up and trained with an experienced professional
-are not a physical barrier and are not fool-proof
-should not be used as a baby-sitter
-are best used when the owner is present in the yard
-may be less expensive than some physical fences
-do not offer feedback besides electronic stimulation and warning tone
-settings do not automatically adjust to dog’s arousal level
– can be used where zoning does not allow physical fences
– can add to stress associated with stimuli along the fence line if not accompanied by proper training and socialization
I have run into many cases as described by Dog Diva. I personally believe there are measures one can take to avoid such situations with their dog.
1. Have the e-fence professional walk the lines to make sure the signal isn’t reaching to parts of the yard that the dog should be able to reach.
2. If increasing the level of stimulation for your dog, some models will also increase range of signal simultaneously. Check this before trying it on your dog again. This can cause frustration and confusion due to a lack of consistency in the boundary
3. Make sure the level has been set appropriately
4. Because the e-fence is a “you can’t ever make that mistake” kind of stimulation level and is not readjusting to the state of the dog’s mind, there is a CHANCE that the stimulation will be more than the dog needs at the given moment. This can create a superstitious association with outside stimuli like joggers, passerby’s, children, etc… Because this risk exists, don’t leave your dog out alone, but spend time teaching your dog how to respond to stimuli outside the boundary. Take note of territorial, aggressive, and fearful behavior, and train as needed against it.
I personally think such considerations will reduce the chance of such problems. It is important to know your dog and how they generally react to certain kind of stimuli in assessing whether an e-fence is right for you. However, in most cases, I believe a e-fence or physical fence for most people will be more reliable and safer to contain dogs than boundary training alone. I hope this helps people in their training process and reduces the chances of such stories for other potential e-fence users. ABOVE ALL, IF YOU AREN’T OUTSIDE WITH YOUR DOG, YOU WAIVE YOUR ABILITY TO ADJUST AND TRAIN RESPONSES TO THE UNEXPECTED (like children teasing the dog at the line, etc…)
always appreciate your rational and insightful input here Jon. Thanks for taking time to add all this!
Robin
I could’nt agree more with Robin’s statement.
It is not because some partner abuser cut’s his wife throat with a potato knife that banning potato knifes will solve the problem!
E-collar saved my dogs life!!!!!
Therefore I leave you all my e-collar story here:
Healing fear and blind panic is the most difficult and thus greatest training achievement of all.
It is the highest drive a dog can get in. So there is no “reward” that can top or divert this state of mind.
Panic is a drive that can not be subdued by satisfaction!
It is exactly that kind of dog that got me to realize that e-collar saves lives.
All my dogs come from an animal shelter. Blooper was badly abused by his previous owner (no need for an e-collar there) and had severe kennelsyndrome. He wanted to attack everything. And I do mean everything! Garbage cans, umbrella’s, other dogs, vehicles (all kinds), humans (all kinds), etc…
He should have had a T-Shirt that says: “I hate everything and your next!”
But it was sad… because walking for him was a trip to Hell. The stress he was in continuously was beyond describing. Furthermore because he also hated dogs every walk could be his last. I kept him on the leach but some dog owners feel the bizarre absolute need to let their disobedient dogs run free. An encounter with Blooper could force the other dog into defence. Serious injury could be the consequence.
For two years I tried positive operant conditioning. Two f**ing years lost!
I went to 3 dog schools, 5 personal trainers… And all of them were so brainwashed by the new positive operant training, they all told the same story of which I by now knew it did not and will not work. Thanks to Karen Pryor and her observations on Dolphins (you know the animals that never get out of their aquarium which contains no diversions at all!!!!!).
Clearly complex problems often lead to simple, easy to understand wrong answers!
I could impose leadership with cookies all I wanted. Blooper did fine and obeyed me as long as he was not in a panic-state of mind. It seems logical now. Polite employees let their boss go trough the door first, unless the building is on fire!
After Blooper attacked a young Malinois pup who approached him I came to the end of my rope. Because dog-aggression is like throwing a stone into water. It traumatizes other dogs and can thus lead to aggression in the other dog, who then makes other victims and so on. It had to stop!
Two years of positive operant training was two years lost of an already short live. Dogs don’t live that long… It was two years of unnecessary fear for my dog. Two years of daily risks to be injured for my dog, for a human, for other dogs… It had to stop NOW!
So I Googled once more for another personal trainer… And this time I absolutely wanted someone who could get results, not just beautiful theories. I considered someone who was a three-time champion in NVBK and Belgian Ringsport, all with different dogs and the highest scores ever achieved, as a trainer that could get results! Indeed I’m one of these owners that wants only the very very best for his dog… Enters Bart Bellon.
And after 20 minutes the problem was solved!
Of course it took maintenance but Blooper healed. It all became clear to me. Panic stops once you know exactly what you have to do in a certain situation and this routine is repeated and drilled. This is why soldiers on a dangerous mission do not panic. They are focused on what they were learnt to do and on the accomplishment of their target.
Once he stopped attacking, Blooper had a calmer more focused state of mind which allowed him to reassess the situations he was once so scared of. After only a couple of weeks the fear was all gone…
He now lives peacefully with two other shelter dogs. Gets compliments on walks for his outstanding and exemplary obedience. (Which only proves how exceptional an obedient dog has become since the hype of training only with positive operant conditioning, which is, in my modest opinion, not so positive at all).
Blooper is now a happy self-confident dog that really enjoys his life. Thanks to e-collar and Bart Bellon, who will have my gratitude for ever and then some.
The fact that Blooper could have had all this two years earlier had it not been for the big dog training LIE… still pisses me off big time!
Had I listened to their advice Blooper would have been euthanized. 5 times he got a death sentence by these “positive” people. Their fanatic attitude results into never reconsidering their methods, but in simply stating: “If the dog can not be trained my way the dog should be put to death. The dog is wrong, not my system!
I’m now wearing Bloopers little T-Shirt, with a little ad on. It says: “I hate all fanatic strictly positive operant trainers… and if you’re one of those liars, you’re next!”
To think about the lie I also give you these very interesting links: The truth about training dolphins: that clearly proof that sardines doe not lead to control, not even in an closed aquarium without any distraction.
Here are the links:
“Free the advanced biological weapon system, an interview with Richard O’Barry by Brent Hoff.”
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2003/04/04hoff.html
And the link that shows that movie-producers were sick and tired of waiting for the dolphins to obey, so they used computer animations for the sequel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipper_(1996_film)
Clearly Karen Pryor missed that one! Ach well: The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it’s open!
There is indeed a difference between a dog that knows a command and a dog that obeys a command.
If my dogs are chasing a rabbit and they’re about to cross a busy road I do not only want them to know what “stop” means… I want them to STOP! Simply because I LOVE THEM!
So Robin, you have all my support because, as George Orwell put it so well: In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act.
I personal use a shock collar with my dogs. But I did not use it on them until i fully understood its power. I strapped it to my wrist, and slowly started to turn up the power and zapped myself. I have a tritronics collar system so its got 10 settings, with 10 half settings.
If you have ever felt a tense machine from physio therapy that is what it feels like.
You must properly train your dog so they understand what it means, instead of just blindly pressing the button. They don’t just get it … They do basics from sitting and laying to understand the commands.
I normally only use the collars now on the bottom 3 stimulation, or with the tone to “page” my dog if they are too far away. I use it while hiking so if there is a dog on the path that isn’t behaving (usually the ones on the leash) I have the ability to always get my dog to come back to me. 95% of the time if the collar is on, stimulation is not even used… With having a hunting dog, and the dog switching into hunting mode its imperative to get your dog’s attention… what if they were chasing a rabbit across a busy street?
Just something to chew on.
As a retailer of hidden fence systems & training collars I have observed how these TRAINING Tools give owners & dogs a happier & safer life. Without these tools many dogs would be rehomed, shot or simply left to live a life without any off the lead time – modern e collars are safe & offer an effective method to assist in training or re-training
Hi,
I’ve just heard about the petition for banning shock collars and Libby Davies’ involvement in government. Instead of complaining and blabbing about the issue, I’d like to know what we can do to show the other side of the argument. What can we do to inform the public and government about the benefits of e-collars? I have written an email to Libby Davies with my perspective, but does anyone know who in government I could contact with a letter? Thanks.
Hi Denise,
I do not know yet, but I am touching base with some people in Canada to try and find out. I’ll update asap.
Robin
The best information I have at this point is to continue to write or contact Ms Davies. Let’s try to remember, in all likely-hood she probably has very little knowledge about remote collars and how they can be used humanely. She has only been told the side of the story that is not backed up by facts or actual users. It is easy to sway emotion with the propoganda on that site.
Thank you all for taking action.
Here is the contact information: Libby Davies
House of Commons, Ottawa K1A 0A6 Tel (613) 992-6030 Fax: (613) 995-7412 Email: daviel@parl.gc.ca
2412 Main Street, Vancouver, V5T 3E2 Tel (604) 775-5800 Fax (604) 775-5811
Those of us in Canada who have just become aware of the petition are taking action by writing to our own Members of Parliament to express our opposition on a ban of this tool and to give them some information about the tool. We all must have our voices heard in order to the politicians to realize how many of us use ecollars for the betterment of our dogs.
Thank you Carol. Keep creating awareness and hopefully this will be put to rest quickly.
Give yourself and your dog a chance at a happy family life!
BEHAVIOR TRAINING AND THE E-COLLAR
By Wayne Dorman
I have the tool to successfully train your dog’s behavior. I have the ability to give every dog a fair shot at a happy life. I have the ability to give you and your family the opportunity to enjoy your dog to the fullest.
Let’s state the obvious… We do not live in prehistoric times… We no longer live to hunt, hunt to kill and kill to eat. We have evolved into rational human beings (most of us at least) with compassion, values and common sense. We converse with others in order to reach understandings… we are civilized human beings. Dogs, on the other hand, do not.
Humans as well as dogs have the capacity to change their conduct, mind set, etc. as a result of external and/or biological factors. With humans, however, we abide by a “civilized” set of values and can control these behaviors. Dogs cannot.
Though domesticated over many centuries, dogs were initially bred (with some exceptions of course) for some sort of work function including hunting and killing. These traits are still hard-wired into their behaviors and we must understand this in order to better teach, train and live alongside them and them alongside us!
By knowing a dog’s true nature and tolerance levels, we know what is effective and/or humane in the proper training of the animal. For instance, the indispensable E-COLLAR, which stimulates via vibration. The E-Collar is NOT a shock collar!!! The E-Collar has helped to save the lives of countless dogs and it is imperative to state what this collar is and is not. It is a training tool for mild, moderate and aggressively behaved dogs. It is not a tool of torture or punishment.
The truth is that too many dogs have been put up for adoption and ultimately put-down because of their owner’s inability to find a suitable solution to their dog’s behavioral problems. With expert, specialized dog behavior training enhanced with the use of the E-collar, an owner can effectively train their dog to become an integral, serene and enjoyable part of their family.
Do not give up on your dog! Do not sacrifice his life! I can help to guide your dog in the proper direction and always keep this in mind: a suitable dog behaviorist will admit to you as a client when and if their professional limitations have been reached and should refer you to a trainer who can be of assistance to your situation. Never forget… there is always hope… and happiness.
I guarantee almost all of the people that signed the petition think shock collars are basically remote tazers. None of them know that you can actually control the level so you can use the minimum needed to overcome the distraction. Basically it’s a petition signed out of ignorance.
I’d be extremely disappointed if they try this sort of thing where I live. It gives my dog the off leash freedom at the park to run and enjoy herself while giving me the comfort in knowing that whatever the distraction she’ll still come when called.
On an off note some people that are deluded and think their dog can go unleashed, but obviously can’t, should really get an e-collar.
This follows the typical animal rights movement. People are looking at how they feel instead of looking at what is best for the dog. It wasn’t long ago here in Missouri there was a bill to be voted on by the public about puppy mills. This bill was passed only by the people that lived in areas like St. Louis and Kansas City. These cities were hit hard with pictures and commercials about abusive and neglected dogs at breeding facilities. Of course, these commercials did not talk about how those same facilities had already been shut down by the Dept. of Agriculture. None of these commercials talked about the 4,300 dogs (in 2010 alone) the Dept. of Agriculture worked very hard to get medical treatment and placed where they could fine a new home. All the public knew was that it was wrong to treat dogs that way and hoped that the new bill would fix the problem. What they did not realize is, that same bill held weaker writing than the ordinances that where already in force. Then there were items like allowing for 24/7 access to the outside that could be fatal to a dog as well. None of those people realized what it would be like to be in a room with the door open – no matter how hot it was outside or how cold… How can you heat or cool a room when the door is left open? It sounds good though, doesn’t it?
Positive training sounds good. It implies all other training is negative. In human minds, negative is an ugly word. It’s alright if you talk to me in a language I don’t understand as long as you say it in a positive manner……
I goes back to the old saying of “Guns dont kill people, people kill people”.
Remote collars are not what is causing this abuse it is the “unstable ass holes”!! I think that most people are just uneducated about the use of the collar and when these sites put up all these heartbreaking pictures, it is a sympathy vote from most. Just like the HSUS commercials…… UGH!